喻干, 2001年10月

问：马先生近期个人学术研究的主要内容与方向？

答：中国古代青铜器和古文字，最近二、三年来自己比较着重于在古文字方面的研究，如青铜器文字、竹简文字、战国的楚文字。在1994年中国从香港得到了一堆流落在海外的战国时期的竹简，有1200支，3500字，这些文字的内容绝大部分是世界上从未知道的古书，即秦始皇以前楚国流传的古书。

问：这对于中国的历史学、文学及考古学是否都是重大发现与贡献？

答：这是一个非常大的发现。中国的古代文献在战国以来是很少的，是屈指可数。因为秦始皇统一中国后采取“焚书坑儒”这种严厉地镇压知识份子的政策，民间也不敢收藏和流传这些东西。但当时秦统一以前的楚国贵族死亡以后有的用书来陪葬，这些书就是竹简，被长期埋在地下。这些古书的发现，对中国古代的思想、哲学、历史、地理等很多方面的研究都提出了新问题，从来不知道的新问题。比如我们发现的《诗经》是孔夫子在讲学时由学生所作的记录，还有《周易》及其它各种材料。对于古诗研究也是一个很好的推动。现在全世界的考古界，古文字界都非常重视我们的收藏，我们现在正在研究，从明年开始要逐步出版。

问：今、明年上海物馆有哪些较重大的国际交流活动？

答：新馆开馆以后有比较多的与国外合作的活动，这二年来我们制定了一个总方向，即每一年要搞个边疆地区的考古发现活动，比方说现在有新疆，内蒙的考古精品展览，明年有西藏地区的考古展。这些都是非常大的项目。通过这种项目，我们邀请了国外专家学者来参观讨论及研究。因为少数民族的考古成就很大，但西方的学者很难到些地方去，主要是交通不便，人生地不熟。我们可以作为桥梁及主办者来协助国际学者及中国考古界对少数民族的考古进行一个评估。对于认识这些地区的古代文化是一个非常好的做法。会受到各方面的欢迎。

问：您这次美国之行的主要目的是什么？

答：今年美国与中国有一个关于音乐与文化方面的交流，三月份在上海搞了一个展览“古乐新韵”。把古代的音乐器、特别是长江流域的乐器从国内各地借来，集中在上海展出，并有一个国际讨论会，对中国古代乐器的考古演凑会，在上海歌剧院以古代乐器进行演凑，非常轰动。这是中国这一边搞的。前不久（2000年9月16日）在华盛顿Sackler及Freer博物馆也有一个展览，借用了湖北省出土的编鐘、弦乐、管乐等进行展出，也组织了一个学术讨论会，约300多人参加，中国也来了一些专家，与美国的研究中国音乐、考古的专家和爱好中国古音乐的观众一起作了讲座，最后也有一场演出，是马友友的演出，演出了2个小时。这对中国古代乐器的理解是一个非常好的宣传和推动，我在讨论会上作了专题报告，这是我此次美国之行的主要目的。

问：马先生的演讲主要内容是什么？

答：我们演讲的题目是“战国竹简中的诗乐”，竹简中记载着一些大多数我们现在还不知道的诗的篇名，是古诗演凑的一个目录，最特别的是每组诗篇名的前面都有标明有演奏或演唱这些诗曲时规定的音高，发现了9个不同的音高名称，这是一个重大发现。我们研究中国古代音乐器大都是研究青铜鐘，研究它的形制变化，打击它的声音，研究它的音律及铭文，从来没有发现过古乐的某种曲调，诗的曲调从来没有传下来。而现在一部分诗曲规定的音高被背现了，这是中国音乐史上一件很重要的事情。这在汉代时，汉代人已讲不清楚古代音乐的特点，因为音乐是靠声音流传下来的。而我们现在考证的是战国时期的一批竹简，记载楚国唱诗时曲子的音高，我在会上也放了一些幻灯片，反应相当热烈。

问：能否简单地介绍一下具体情节？

答：发现诗的篇名比较通俗，如情歌一类的东西。因此在传统的礼教典籍中就收不进去。但古诗三百篇中有一篇称之为“硕人”，发现的诗乐中有相同的篇名，譬方有一首诗曲名，是一个妇人称赞她的丈夫等等，是比较浪漫的。

问：马先生如同一个大翻译家，把古代文字内容翻给现代人听，这不仅仅是对中西方交流，也对长期居住在海外的几百万中国人起到了很大的教育作用？

答：中华文化源远流长，若我能以自己的学术知识来弘扬其精华，本人将感到非常荣幸。

问：马先生是世界著名青铜器专家，在此我想询问一下关于中国青铜器在世界拍卖市场的行情与方向？

答：拍卖本身就是一种文化。西方、东方的买主要求收藏中国的文物，收芷中国的青铜器，他们就想了解这种文化，通过这些来了解中国的历史、艺术，同时也经济方面的利益因素。文化是一种世界性现象，是没有国界的，是有交流的。而所有权与文化交流又是另一码事，它属于经济的和法律的范畴，在历史上，中国有大批量文物流落海外，多年来在海外拍卖市场上不断交易。但近些年来从中国所流出大量文物是值得深思的问题。

问：这正是我要问的下一个问题。现在由于经济的原因，每年都有大量国家级的文物经过各种途经流出海外，对此您如何看待？

答：这对中国来说是有害的。如这批竹简就是私下流传到香港后被我们高价买回来的。这种地下市场的形成是有其原因的，因为古代的，即宋元以前的文物拍卖在中国没有市场，不允许拍卖，但在西方可以拍卖，因此这类文物就以各种形式和渠道非法流向海外。比如在香港就有一个很大的文物市场，几条街上有上百个古董文物商店，里面充实了很多从中国流传出去的新的出土文物。另外美国和欧洲也有一些大的古玩商掌握着许多新近流传出去的国宝级文物。我们看到后觉得是一个非常大的冲击，心里很难受。因为有些博物馆几十年都可能见不到的东西，在香港市场上随便可以收到。近几年来我们取得了当地政府在经济上的支持，逐步从海外收回了一些流散在外的文物。在青铜器方面，我们收回了二百多件，都是些最好的，不能再好的东西。当然这也是在香港朋友帮助之下才得以做到。将来我们还会这样做。虽然现在有许多国家级文流落在海外，但市面上的假货也相当多，弄得不好就会上当。我认为，最好现在要有一个咨询机构，来帮助海外的收藏家及中国古董爱好者来鉴别真伪或提供参考意见。

中艺网：谢谢马先生在百忙之中抽空接受我们的采访，我们中华艺术网将作出更大努力，在古董方面积极开辟展示及咨询功能。

eCA: Mr. Ma, what is the direction of your recent academic study?

Ma: My recent focus is Chinese ancient bronze and ancient characters, especially the Bamboo Slips and text. During the last three years, I have laid particular emphasis on the ancient characters study, for instance, bronze text and the bamboo text of Warring State Period. In 1994 Shanghai Museum acquired a large group of Bamboo Slips of the Warring State Period from Hong Kong with the assistance of local friends, which totaled 1,200 pieces and over 3,500 characters. Most of those ancient texts are scarce and thus precious in the world. We now know those are actually widely used text in Chu prior to the dynasty of Emperor Qin, the first emperor in China’s 5,000 history.

eCA: This is a tremendous discovery and great achievement to China’s history, literature and archeology.

Ma: It is. As we all know, ancient texts are numbered, mainly because Emperor Qin adopted “Burn Books and Kill Intellectuals” policy. Books, to be exact, Bamboo Slips, were usually buried with deceased celebrities during that time. Anyway, those returned texts have raised a lot of new questions to us and is definitely a big plus to our academic study such as ancient Chinese Philosophy, History, Literature and even Geology. We are exploring those Bamboo Slips Texts and the ever-discovered contents. Now the world is looking at us. We plan to publish our findings and those marvelous collections starting from next year.

eCA: How many events will be held in Shanghai Museum in 2000 and 2001?

Ma: We’ve set up a general direction, that is, every year the Museum will present an activity from minorities. For instance, now we have archaeology exhibitions from Xin Jiang and Mongol. Next year we will hold exhibition from Tibet. To promote these great events, we also invited foreign archaeologists and researchers to join the program. Before, it was difficult to expose minorities’ findings to the West due to inconvenient transportation and culture difference. Now it is a big improvement for both minority archaeology activity and international professionals. We are going to offer as much assistance as possible for the experts who want to explore findings in those areas.

eCA: Can you tell us the main purpose of your US trip this year?

Ma: This year there is a Music and Art exchange program between the US and China. In China, this March, we presented an exhibition called “Old Music but New Tone” in Shanghai. To do that, we collected ancient music instruments from all over the country. Plus, we hosted an international seminar to evaluate and summarize the event. In Shanghai Opera House, there was also an Ancient Music Performance, which made a sensation throughout the event. On US side, several days ago (September 16, 2000) there was a similar exhibition at Sackler and Freer Museum in Washington DC. It also hosted a seminar and performance called “Music in the Age of Confucius” which attracted over 300 experts and collectors to participant. I addressed a speech at the seminar and that’s my main purpose of US trip.

eCA: What were your key points of the speech?

Ma: My topic was “Music for Poetry: A Fourth- or Third-Century B.C. Bamboo Text”. Those Bamboos recorded some unknown sections that we haven’t figured out before, for instance, “Gao” is a chapter of poetic performance which is composed of 9 notes and 13 pitches. We used to study serials bells by its shape, sound and veins when we study ancient Chinese music. However, nobody knows what exactly formed those characters. Now we have the results from the Bamboo Slips that will tell us many things and events in their time, and this is a breakthrough. I’m trying to translate these new discoveries to our modern people. It was always difficult to explain the characteristics of ancient music because it was spread by sound not text. What we discovered was “Pitch” of Chu music recorded on those Bamboo Slips. This is an important finding. I used some transparencies in the speech and the audience was enthusiastic.

eCA: Can you tell us some details?

Ma: The titles of poems are all very simple and popular. Some of poems are like love songs and used to be excluded from traditional chapters and collections. For instance, one poem portrays a woman expresses her deep admiration to her husband. The rhythm is quick and light, just like pops now, such as “Everything about my husband is lovable”, “Why didn’t you listen to me”, and “your longings for me”, etc.

eCA: Mr. Ma, if I comprehend right, you act as a great translator. You translate those Bamboo Slips Texts from ancient into modern. The role you play has contributed a lot to the culture exchange between East and West. Millions of Chinese who live oversees also benefit substantially from you works.

Ma: That’s my job and pleasure.

eCA: Mr. Ma, you are the world renowned expert of Chinese bronze. Could you tell us some information about the trading market, especially the auction market for Chinese bronze?

Ma: Auction itself is a culture. The buyers from West and East are eager to collect Chinese antiques and bronzes. They try to comprehend China’s history, art and culture by studying those antiques and bronzes. Culture is a universal phenomenon without national boundaries. However, the ownership and cultural exchange is a different issue. It belongs to economic category. In the past, a large amount of Chinese antiques have drifted into the other countries and has formed a unique culture after many years of trading in the auction market, and the auction market is a special stage for this kind of culture. My big concern is those recently lost antiques. We should not allow this happen again.

eCA: That’s actually my next question. How do you feel about this?

Ma: Negative. I mean it will hurt our antiques and the reputations of our country. Those Bamboos is a good example. The reason for this situation is we didn’t have auction in the past and the West did. Therefore, our antiques flowed away through different channels. For instance, Hong Kong has a big antique market. Hundreds of antique shops crowded on two or three streets, which are full of, lost Chinese antiques. In the USA and Europe, there are also lots of people own many of those national-level antiques. We feel deep regret for our huge losses. Those markets have some very precious antiques that our national museums don’t. Recently, we have taken back some lost antiques because of the great support from the Chinese national and local government. For bronze, we regained two hundred pieces that are all the top-level collections. Recently, our country lost some very valuable antiques and treasures. For the economic sake, some people ignore the nation’s law to illegally export antiques to abroad. We lost too much good things, and we should not allow this happen again. On the other hand, although many valuable antiques are spread through oversees, there are still tons of fakes in the market. It is necessary to set up a non-profit organization that helps collectors and buyers appraise the antiques and offer suggestions.

 eCA: Thanks so much for your time and support. eChinaArt.com will make more efforts on the presentation and promotion of our Chinese antiques.

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